Catherine Coley, the CEO of Binance US, talks about her background as a foreign exchange trader, how and why she made the leap into crypto, and how she became the CEO of Binance US. We discuss how Binance US differs from Binance, who Binance US’s target customers are, how Binance decides which coins to list, what’s on Catherine’s wish list to regulators, and whether Binance US will be connected to or cut off from the global, open financial system Binance is building. We also cover why Binance US launched with Tether as its stablecoin, why the company is also focusing on BUSD, how they became comfortable using BNB token on the exchange, whether or not they worry that BNB could be considered a security. Catherine talks about whether the company will offer leverage, lending, staking, etc., and where Binance US’s future revenue could come from as exchange fees trend to zero. We also cover what Catherine has learned from working customer support for Binance US and and how she compares the US and Asian crypto markets.
Thank you to our sponsors!
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Episode links:
Catherine Coley: https://twitter.com/cryptocoley
Binance US: https://www.binance.us/en
Binance US on Twitter: https://twitter.com/BinanceAmerica
Binance US blog: https://www.binance.us/en/blog
Crypto Rating Council: https://www.coindesk.com/coinbase-led-crypto-ratings-council-draws-skepticism-from-legal-experts
Telegram notice about Grams and Ton: https://telegram.org/blog/ton-gram-notice
CZ’s 2020 New Year’s message: https://www.binance.com/en/amp/blog/419417682154909696/Binance-2020-New-Year-Message-Building-Foundations–
Binance US joins Chamber of Commerce Executive Committee: https://www.binance.us/en/blog/419943835304939520/BinanceUS-Joins-the-Executive-Committee-of-the-Chamber-of-Digital-Commerce
Multicoin Capital report, Binance is Blitzscaling: https://multicoin.capital/2019/11/07/binance-is-blitzscaling/
Transcript:
Laura Shin:
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Unchained, your no-hype resource for all things crypto. I’m your host, Laura Shin.
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Laura Shin:
Today’s guest is Catherine Coley, CEO of Binance US. Welcome, Catherine.
Catherine Coley:
Hello, Laura, how are you doing today?
Laura Shin:
Good. Happy New Year. I’m so glad we could finally do this chat.
Catherine Coley:
2020, can’t believe it’s here.
Laura Shin:
You worked for five years at Morgan Stanley, doing foreign exchange trading in Hong Kong and London, and that was kind of what you were focused on before you got into crypto. So, I was curious to hear about your transition from traditional finance to crypto. Why did you make that switch, and how?
Catherine Coley:
To me, it was almost inevitable. I spent five years really focused on the macro factors that changed how the world really operated, and how people bet on different news headlines, different fundamental factors, different technical factors, and really kind of moved their weight of their own wealth around to realize how markets could be beneficial to them. So, when you introduce something like a new asset class, our kind of trader brain just automatically sees something that we can buy and sell, you know, common phrase of understanding how markets work.
So, we saw Bitcoin kind of come into this space. For me, it was around 2013, when hedge funds that I was covering started, you know, buying this as a PA, which is kind of your personal account, trading just to get a little glimpse of the technology, and that’s really where we just began to realize that this was just going to be another asset class that we could trade. So, it was very natural for me to move into crypto, and very obvious for me, seeing the space itself of traditional finance, where foreign transactions, the margins were all being compressed, and understanding just the cycle that I was in, the opportunity to be on the front line of crypto was one that I had to seize.
Laura Shin:
And now that you’ve worked in this space for about two or three years, how would you say crypto, and I guess in particular crypto trading, compares to foreign exchange trading, or more broadly, to Wall Street in general?
Catherine Coley:
It has the same adrenaline factors that I fell in love with when I first moved out to Hong Kong on the trading floor there, of just understanding that we are on the first and early days of this market behavior, understanding, recognizing patterns. These are all ones that don’t come with decades or centuries of existing data points for us. So, being able to have new technologies be built on top of it is fascinating.
Being able to see new behaviors and new, you know, consumer behaviors take place around it is fascinating, and one that I just continue to kind of keep my eyes open and forward-looking, to make sure that we can build this in the best way possible.
Laura Shin:
And so, tell us a little bit about how you made the transition specifically from crypto, sorry, from traditional finance into crypto?
Catherine Coley:
Yeah. So, it was probably, it was right before Brexit was taking place, or so we thought it was taking place, when Morgan Stanley really kind of did a real quick look and said, oh no, all of our ex-pats and 40 percent of our fixed income workforce, we’re going to get rid of that, and you know, what an opportunity that actually was for me to really lift up out of my seat and say, I can go anywhere in the world. I can do anything I want right now. What is it that I really want to learn more about? And for me, that was learning how to navigate between a traditional hedge fund, macroeconomics world, and that of tech.
I was an early adopter of, you know, any app or technology that I could get my hands on, and I wanted to know exactly how that world worked a little bit more. So, the natural gravity was to San Francisco to just kind of learn the language, understand how they think versus how I’ve thought in two of the largest the financial centers in the world, and really kind of break it down and see where I can be a, you know, helpful citizen of that world. So, I came over to Silicon Valley Bank, actually, and all my clients were these great start-ups, and I just, it felt like I was sitting on the sidelines.
I was watching some of my clients just do vertical growth, and you know, really exciting products they were building out, and traction that they were growing, and I said, I can’t sit on the sidelines anymore, being a facilitator to these customers. So, I said, all right, I had a alert for a while on Ripple, oddly, on LinkedIn, and finally the day came where a job role lined up exactly with my expertise. So, knocked on their door, and within two weeks was working at Ripple. So, that was the first full, two-feet dive into crypto that I took with my career.
Laura Shin:
And there, you were head of XRP institutional liquidity?
Catherine Coley:
That’s correct. Yeah.
Laura Shin:
And so, what did that role entail?
Catherine Coley:
That role is, you know, every aspect you can think about an asset in this market, I was involved in. So, whether it was understanding XRP trading on exchanges, the global exchanges, getting the listings there, understanding who was trading this, whether it was your market-makers, whether it was your retail and institutions, understanding how liquidity can grow, what type of financial products we actually needed to provide to users to make sense of this. So, OTC markets were picking up, people wanting, like, large block or tranche trades in an XRP, and then, understanding just our impact on the larger crypto environment with introducing XRP, and what other aspects could be built upon it.
So, if you think about every component that I worked on, that’s really what helped me take on this next role, because anything from custody, to market-makers, to trading liquidity, to apps, to, you know, OTC, I was involved in understanding who were the key players at that time.
Laura Shin:
And then, so, why don’t you tell us the story of how you became a CEO of Binance US?
Catherine Coley:
Yeah, so, it wasn’t a short story, but the, I was over in Singapore with Cumberland, which was one of the OTC desks that we worked with on the XRP side, and they’re hosting one of their first big summits, where they brought in the likes of Chihan, Cee-Zee, the Winkelvii, gosh, Joe Lubin, you know, all these greats of crypto that were seemingly on opposite sides at every table. They finally brought them into one room, and it was, you know, what a spectacular opportunity to be in that room and really understand how we were going to move forward as an industry, and also recognize that some of these folks had never met in real life before.
And so, with that, I ended up sitting on a bus next to a guy that, it turned out to be the CFO of Binance. So, Wei Zhou, I sat next to, and…Zhou Wei, and we kicked it off in a way that was kind of serendipitous, and also one that, once you have an opportunity where you see eye to eye with someone from different sides of the world, you kind of always hold onto that. So, I stayed in touch with Wei on a multitude of things. He would be asking me about different market participants, understanding, you know, what they were thinking about or going into, and we just shared this kind of common bond and respect for the market, and where we were both growing and going as, you know, stewards of this space.
And so, then, about a year later, it actually came to fruition. So, he, you know, kind of tapped me on the shoulder and said, what are your thoughts around coming to Binance, and where you can really add value, and to me, that was really providing that impact to my own local market in the United States. So, being able to bring their global technology and package it up in a way that was useful and productive for American users was something that just was a really important part for me to really figure out how we can fix the infrastructure in the United States to accommodate users to be a part of a much larger global story.
Laura Shin:
Yeah, this is actually a theme that I want to ask you about, but first, let’s just cover the basics. So, what is Binance US, and how does it differ from Binance?
Catherine Coley:
Sure. So, Binance US provides a, you know, the fast and convenient way for you to bring dollars into crypto markets with a large variety of selection across the tokens that you can buy and sell. And so, we have 25 tokens-plus listed with dollar and USDT, and BTC pairs, and we have an app available on Android and IOS so you can do this from anywhere you are traveling around. And it’s really catered for a US user, being able to provide them the compliance necessary within the US regulation, within a vetted platform that really lets people feel comfterful about being part of a global community, while also knowing that they’re being looked after from a US user’s perspective.
Laura Shin:
So, Binance previously did operate in the US, and then it closed off Binance to US users, and then Binance US replaced all this. Hopefully, the way I’ve phrased this is not confusing to people, but so, why was it necessary for Binance to create a separate entity for the US market?
Catherine Coley:
Mostly because the US market is so unlike other markets that they were already in. If you think about just blanket marketing to a global user, that’s nearly impossible. So, you’ve got different aspects of understanding the local regulation, understanding the different consumer types, really being able to cater to that audience that really make more sense on making this a specific product for the United States. You know, that’s really where we saw the need, and Binance has done a wonderful job of facilitating global economies to help this out.
I mean, think about the other regions that they’re in from a fiat on-ramp perspective. They’ve got Binance Jersey, they’ve got Binance Singapore, and so, spinning up these ways for getting local currency access into these global crypto markets has really been an important factor for Binance to kind of progress in this space. And so, for us in the United States, this was the opportunity to bring US dollars and fiat on-ramps into, you know, a regulated entity that would be up to par for the everyday American user.
Laura Shin:
So, Binance famously launched in the summer of 2017, and then became the number-one crypto exchange by the end of the year. Binance US is launching during a really different time, not during, you know, the crazy mania, or market that’s similar to the crazy mania of 2017. It’s more of a downturn, and also, of course, you have a lot of the regulatory restrictions that the original Binance did not have. So, for Binance US, how do you plan to counteract some of these headwinds?
Catherine Coley:
There’s no better time than the present now. We’ve had almost ten years of learning how exchanges and marketplaces in the United States have been operating. So, for us to be able to come in and understand what has worked already and what hasn’t worked, our consumers right now and customers are really, really opinionated in what does and does not work for them. So, one of the big components of Binance US is that we really are listening and building for our users here in the US.
There’s something that I think is very helpful for our team, but also, you know, quite humbling, and that’s, be careful what you wish for is often what we say, because we’ll build stuff that you, we hear our customers needing. This is a time where they actually know what products they want, are understanding where the burden and the hurdles were earlier, and we’re really here to lower those barriers to entry, to really include more people into, you know, this digital era, rather than exclude them or complicate the process any more.
Laura Shin:
Binance is operational, I believe, in all except 12 of the states, and those 12 states are some of the big states, like New York, Texas, and Florida. So, I’m curious to hear what your take is on regulation in the US.
Catherine Coley:
Yeah, it was pretty hard to realize that I was going to be building something from scratch and not able to provide it to any of my existing network back home. So…
Laura Shin:
Because everybody’s…?
Catherine Coley:
…recognizing…
Laura Shin:
…in Florida?
Catherine Coley:
…I grew up in Florida, I went to school in North Carolina. My sister’s in New York, so, for realizing that, you know, those big-hit home states for me, I didn’t have a home-court advantage for sure, but the great aspect is, we were able to get up and running in 37 states in the US, operating and being able to provide our services. The states that are remaining, and I get this question actually every day, is, you know, when is my state going to be listed, and we’re going through the process of the money transmission licenses that is a requirement for anyone to be able to conduct this style of business in the 50 states.
So, when we realized that our, you know, peers of the industry have had seven years’ advantage of getting these licenses in place before they’re able to operate, we’re definitely playing catch-up in that aspect, and people need to realize that it’s a long process to go through, but one that we’re really excited about doing, because then that lets us really have a little bit more autonomy in the business we can provide to our users. So, hang tight, but also, I think it’s wonderful that we’ve had the regulators be able to see now what these businesses are.
There’s a little less skepticism of, you know, are they profitable and productive businesses to run in a marketplace for digital assets. So, the state regulators, you know, this isn’t the first time they’re seeing our business plan. It’s a common practice by now for them to be able to look at these businesses, know the risks, ask the right questions, understand, you know, what standards we need to be holding, and what value we’re really adding to their state.
So, I’m pretty excited for being able to roll those out, you know, when the time comes, but it’s wonderful to also hear the roar from those states of how vibrant their crypto communities are and how much demand there is for our app, or other features that Binance US has on our trading platform.
Laura Shin:
But do you feel that going state by state is more onerous than it needs to be? Like, if you could change something about US regulation, particularly around this issue, what would you want to see?
Catherine Coley:
I mean, I’ve always wanted to make someone else’s job easier than it is, but I think they’re doing a great job in terms of understanding what they need to be comfortable with, and of course, time will tell. You know, I say they’ve had seven years to understand what a crypto marketplace looks like, but that’s only seven years. That doesn’t make an expert out of anyone. So, we’re still really in this state of evolution, of understanding what regulation is necessary to, you know, to keep consumer protection, to really follow up and make sure these are sound businesses, and the protections are all in place for the marketplace itself.
But at the same time, where can we allow this innovation to grow? Where can we recognize that, you know, there are a slew of jobs that could be opened up when these states really recognize that we can be operational there? You know, I think we’re seeing it more and more, the reason for people being based tech-wise out in California is oftentimes just because the regulation does allow for you to take part in businesses sooner. And so, you know, some of these states, I think, it’s exciting to see them welcome innovation, and with that, we want to reward them for opening their doors.
Laura Shin:
So, going back to that very fast growth period that I mentioned, that Binance experienced when it launched, part of its success came from the fact that, first of all, it launched as a crypto-to-crypto exchange, and also that it mostly played regulatory arbitrage, kind of, sometimes avoiding regulations in certain countries that would be pretty onerous, other times, you know, especially more recently going after jurisdictions that are more crypto-friendly, especially to establish these fiat on-ramps. But obviously, Binance I don’t think can follow the exact same playbook to grow its market shares, so what is your strategy there?
Catherine Coley:
Yeah, I mean, we’re here really able to cater to the US user, and that, to us, is one that is a different playbook than we’ve seen before with Binance. You recognize some of the perks or features that would be on an exchange that globally would be allowed are not necessarily the same that you’ll see in the US, but the burdens that a US user has, whether it’s taxes, whether it is, you know, KYC and understanding market regulation, if we can make those features easier and more seamless for our users, then they can start beginning to participate in that kind of global phenomenon, or beyond phenomenon, global industry that is crypto.
So, you know, I think it’s great to recognize what has worked really well on a global scale, and then, it’s my job to translate that and understand how we can cater and build it for the US, and that’s, we’re taking that head-on.
Laura Shin:
And when you talk about the US customer, obviously, within the US there is a range of different customers, and we’re seeing some of the other exchanges, like Coinbase, you know, cultivate different segments of the market. So, who is your target customer, or who are your target customers?
Catherine Coley:
Target customers, right. You know, I think there is not one customer, and that’s something that I often worry about, is the generalization of who’s using crypto. But the idea that we have not only a wealth of capital markets and able investors from an institution side, whether they’re waiting on the sidelines for more clarity, or they’re just trying to understand this market before they dive in, they’re still here, and based, you know, largely in the US, whether it’s Chicago, New York, or even west coast.
You know, there’s some serious amounts of capital here that are active traders in capital markets that can see this as a very plausible next step for them. The other aspect, if you break it down, are people that are crypto-native, or this is their first foray or their second foray into day trading, and you know, a routine awareness of these markets. We’re really aware of what they need, and that’s a lot more than the brand-new customer that would need in a crypto market.
Those guys are already advanced in trading in futures, you know, wanting to see more products, more order types, more charts, et cetera, versus a new customer is just maybe beginning to learn how to dabble, what is it like to hold it, what is it like to feel that risk in your hand, of understanding that the price does go up, the price does go down, how can you monitor that, how can you access it quickly, and not be burdened by a huge amount of fees just learning about the technology.
So, we’ve broken it up in a way that we can provide, you know, an easy on-ramp for first-time users, with, we’ve got a one-click buy-sell on our home page, so you can just say, I want to spend dollars and buy Bitcoin to an amount, click, go, you’ve got it. It sits in your wallet. You can monitor that, any, you know, every day, watch it, trade it across 25 pairs. That’s a really easy system for folks that are just wanting to get in, learn about the markets, and go from there.
The next kind of stage that we offer is our basic and advanced trading platform on our web site, and that really breaks it down. You’ve got trading view charts. You’ve got more technical analysis available. You’ve also got, you know, that’s where you’re going to be leaving market orders. That’s where you’re going to be really engaging with the market, understanding their order book, understanding the order depth, and that’s familiar to a lot of folks that were, fell in love with how simple it was, but also how straightforward it was from a trading perspective.
And then, you bring both of those components into an app form, and that allows us for the mobile customer. I think about, most of the United States, and most of the world right now, is really on the go. So, if you’ve got a mobile component, that’s really how we’re able to cater to our users that are going to be checking this, you know, whether it’s me late at night, I can close my laptop now and just have my phone near my bed. Probably not good behavior, but…or you can have it, you know, on your way to class, on your way to, I’ve had truck drivers message me on Twitter that said, I can’t bring my desktop with me on the road, and I love trading crypto while I’m, hopefully not while driving, but maybe at a rest stop.
Laura Shin:
Definitely not while driving.
Catherine Coley:
Definitely not while driving, but…
Laura Shin:
I’m a pedestrian, so please don’t touch your phone while you drive.
Catherine Coley:
I hope you’re not crossing highways any time soon, but the aspect of crypto just allows you to have this added layer of financial freedom that can be on top of your day job, that can be on top of your education components. It’s just another way to let you participate in a global market, and really own and take control of your own capital, and that, to me, is just something that is profound in markets. We’ve traditionally had huge hurdles to entry. You know, accredited investors had to be a certain threshold.
I remember every day while at Morgan Stanley, like, just begging to become an accredited investor. I just thought it was so funny that I worked and facilitated some of the largest, you know, money-managers around the world, and yet myself, I was still boxed out, given I was two years out of college. But those components, to me, that discrepancy of inequality was just kind of striking, and I understand that there are good barriers to entry, as in education first, so that you understand what you’re trading, but there doesn’t have to be that penalty for fees.
You know, it shouldn’t cost you one percent to take a leap into a new technology. It should be paying you one percent, frankly, to try something out. So, I think that’s something that we’re really just aware of as a global organization, and one that I’m really aware of for the United States, given that inequality is tangible. You know, I think about the number of peers I have that actually dove into capital markets, and I was one of a thousand that went into sales and trading, and definitely one of my only peer set of women that dove into crypto.
Fortunately, it’s such a ecosystem where I found great other peers that are likeminded, and we all kind of revel in the fact that we’re, you know, a little bit rebellious, a little bit forward-thinking, and definitely stubborn enough to continue to fight for this. So, I think there’s a nice camaraderie with people that do take the risks, but we need to make it less intimidating, less frightening, less scary to understand, and that’s really what Binance US and the larger Binance has done wonderfully.
Laura Shin:
And one other question about this transition, I was just curious if you had any data on how the switch affected usage of Binance in a broad sense in the US. Was trading volume from US customers, you know, obviously went, after that left Binance, do you feel like now you have the same level of trading volume on Binance US, or do you feel like people moved off to other platforms?
Catherine Coley:
You know, when we launched, we launched with seven coins only. We launched in September, late September 2019, so I’ll hold you to the fact that if Binance started in June, they had a three-month lead on us, but they also had a different environment that they were launching in. But so, we started in September with seven coins, and then grew that to about 27 quickly within our first hundred days of trading. So, that really allowed us to bring in folks that felt isolated when they realized it was only seven coins, going to be listed.
One of the benefits of Binance is it’s always been, you know, open-minded in the aspect of providing a diverse selection of token offerings. It’s not there to be a gatekeeper of what you should and should not trade. It’s really just providing that freedom of choice, and that’s something we definitely believe in as well, but we run through with the understanding of the US regulation. We run through a digital asset risk assessment framework, and that’s a much, you know, tedious process, 75-point checklist to go through each token before we list it.
So, we kind of put out our list of what we’re exploring, and then we spend our time exploring those, and when they pass the framework, we list them, and you know…
Laura Shin:
Can you summarize kind of the top line points that you’re looking for in a coin before you list it?
Catherine Coley:
Sure. I mean, the aspects that you really need to understand from it are, yes, A, their ability to not be a security, understand where they are from a trading liquidity perspective, community perspective, is there a US user growth, is this a US-targeted project, you know, understanding how the facilitation of providing liquidity from the US dollar perspective would be beneficial to the ecosystem that it’s growing, and then as well, what is the component that this is adding to the American access for crypto.
So, I see us continuing, we’ve had another list of about 20 or 18 tokens that we are exploring, and I continue to see more listings be something that’s positive for the American user, but one that we’re also recognizing, you know, there’s less volume trading on these smaller coins. So, how can we still maintain adequate liquidity on our platform so that people are, you know, incentivized to come to a healthy market rather than one that’s quite dry or liquid? So, I think there are components that we’ve heard good feedback so far, of more BTC pairs.
One of the aspects, as you said, Binance launched was crypto-to-crypto only. So, when we consider people that are now using dollars as their on-ramp, that might not be the same audience member that you had on a Bitcoin-to-another alt coin payer trading. So, we have to really remember that there’s a life cycle of a trader that might be crypto-to-crypto, or might be fiat-to-crypto, and we need to bridge that for both of them.
Laura Shin:
All right, in a moment we’re going to discuss more about regulatory issues. Of course, you guys, I’m sure you knew that I was going to probably really zone in on that, but anyway, first a quick word from the sponsors who make this show possible.
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Laura Shin:
Back to my conversation with Catherine Coley of Binance US. When you launched, why did you choose Tether as your stable coin?
Catherine Coley:
We chose Tether as our stable coin as largely, it was one of the largest stable coins in the market being traded. We understood that a lot of the users globally enjoyed moving their, you know, whether it was profits, or taking themselves out of a trading market into stable coins, USDT was broadly adopted. And so, that’s really one of the components that was early on that we factored in. I do see us involving more around USD.
The USD is a stable coin that can be listed on, it’s listed on all the Binance exchanges, but also on a good slew of other exchanges out there, and still, will just allow for one-to-one conversion, and really allow for an easy way to have skin in the game, but maybe not in a volatile asset. So, I think that’s an important step for people to understand, is that moving your funds into a digital asset that is a stable coin is a great progress and a great step that you’re taking, if you’re not comfortable yet understanding or deciding which pair you want to be investing in, or trading around.
Laura Shin:
And I was also, you know, since we were discussing regulatory issues, I was curious, has Binance US applied yet for a Bit license?
Catherine Coley:
So, we’re in the process of applying for all of the states that we’re missing. So, that’s 13 there. So, going through the steps of preparing for those applications, and understanding, you know, the steps that we need to take from both an internal perspective, but also a market and external perspective, going through all those steps for every single one of them. So, that’s all I’ll tell you now. It’s quite an arduous process, but one that we take very seriously.
It’s being led by Chris Robins in our DC office, who has an extensive regulatory and legal background specific to getting these licenses for digital asset companies. And so, it’s, you know, we’re in great hands for that process, but one that is, it’s extensive. You know, it is really something that you have to think through clearly, and there’s a reason why you see companies leaving the US. You know, it’s not an easy space to just pop up and begin business, but we knew that going into it, and we’re not giving up fighting. We’ve only just begun.
Laura Shin:
And they’ve actually proposed some changes to the Bit license. I think, just from a high level, one is that, for exchanges that operate in the state, they’ll be able to list any coins that the regulator approves for listing in New York, and then also, they, New York Department of Financial Services will publish a model framework for coin listings that exchanges should follow. What do you think of these proposed changes?
Catherine Coley:
I mean, it’s fantastic. The more clarity that we get around regulation and more guidance just shows that they’re understanding our process even more. So, I think the most that we can do is just teach them our business, share with them what we’re working on, come and meet in the middle of the road of where their concerns are and what we can do to address those head-on.
You know, we’ve run through, as I mentioned, that digital asset risk assessment framework, is one that we vet through seriously, and are able to kind of, reminds me of math class, of, like, proving your work, show the work that we’ve done in order to be comfortable listing these items or tokens on our platform. So, a lot of what regulation entails is just showing that you’ve done the work in order to do the business, and that’s what we’re really here, to show our work, to do our thinking. We constantly have our consumer in mind, because I’m one of them.
Laura Shin:
And you mentioned Christopher Robins, who leads your legal and regulatory team. One other thing that you have done on the regulatory front is you’ve recently joined the Chamber of Digital Commerce’s executive committee, and I just wondered, you know, it seems like, obviously, regulation is the focus for you guys. If you could present a wish list to regulators and lawmakers, what would you put on it?
Catherine Coley:
I have a wish list, but I, you know, I was waiting till next week to share that with them. The components that we really want people to come into this space when they’re looking to be, you know, the authority in it is understanding where both the consumer and these companies are coming from in terms of the products we can provide folks. The ability to let American users compete on a global marketplace is really an advantage for the US itself.
You’re able to not hold back your customers or your citizens from partaking and understanding what is affecting the world at large. So, the aspects of pain points that naturally drive people towards using crypto as a solution don’t necessarily affect us directly in the US, given that we don’t change currencies between state lines, but when you recognize that every flight out of Singapore is an international one, and you can’t use your same currency any time you land in an airplane, that’s when you recognize that there is a significant advantage to cryptocurrencies and this component that allows for a, you know, a digital representation of value as we know it.
So, I think the components of understanding the pain points and benefits on a global scale, and then bringing that into why the US still needs to be an active participant in this industry is a really important one, and one I’ve spent my whole life doing, being a translator for on-the-ground, understanding a global market, and bringing that into why it’s relevant in to a US user. So, I’m familiar with, you know, navigating the unknown and providing a digestible answer to people who may never, ever see what is over on other sides of the world, and that’s something that I really think that we’re in the right place here with Binance US.
Laura Shin:
Well, this is actually what I was curious about, because I saw, I mean, it’s obvious if you look at Binance’s strategy overall, but you know, they have this very, like, global strategy in the sense, like, you can tell that they see these kind of, like, global financial markets in the future, and I saw Multicoin Capital had a report on how Binance’s blitz-scaling, as they called it, and one of the lines in it was, “Binance is competing to be the centerpiece in a global open financial system.”
So, you know, when I was looking at that, and thinking about Binance US, I was just wondering, like, where does Binance US fit in? Is it being excluded from that global open financial system?
Catherine Coley:
No, not at all. I think we’re just catering towards, I mean, you could call the US a global open financial system inside of the US borders, practically. You know, there’s a, insane amounts of, I call it, like, typography within the US of various user types, various understandings of sophistication of market products, and that, to us, is the bubble or the world that we get to work inside of. What I get to make sure is that that product and that community is not left behind.
So, we have a fascinating aspect, they’re called Binance Angels, and they’re really just global volunteers that want to be, you know, committed to updating everyday users about our products, or understanding, or helping facilitate an understanding of how Binance can really cater to the needs of individuals all over the world. And so, we have that component already in the US as well, with the Binance Angels, just being able to welcome all types of folks through, with our community channel, understanding their pain points, understanding, you know, how does this work, I don’t understand it.
You know, the ability to listen to people from all walks of life is best when you’re building it with everyone in mind. So, for us at Binance US, I mean, I think one of the fun components is our team is really made up of what we see right now in the United States. So, you know, whether it’s welcoming diversity of thought, perspective, or background, whether it’s really just addressing the different model of who we see coming into crypto, we’re building that as a component within our own team and within our own product. And that’s something that the blitz-scaling you mentioned, I mean, what, 400-plus employees in 40 countries, that’s an amazing advantage when you’ve got that amount of perspective being able to be behind the product.
Laura Shin:
Well, but so, then, how will Binance US be connected to the wider world of things going on in Binance? Like, will the US customers just be trading with each other, or, you know, I mean, well, let me ask, maybe, like, a more specific question around this. I noticed, like, in Cee-Zee’s 2020 New Year’s message, he had this little section on degrees of decentralization, and in one of them he full-on admitted, “Binance Chain/DEX is definitely less decentralized than Ethereum,” and as some examples, he said that the code is not open-source, and there are a limited number of validator notes.
But so, for instance, you know, Binance here is working on this Binance DEX, but then, is it hard for Binance US to offer things that could be closely tied to that DEX, like, you know, could you list the BTCB token that they have on Binance DEX, which is essentially a token that’s pegged to the value of BTC, just so people who, so people can easily trade cryptocurrencies that are not on the Binance Chain? Like, could you offer that?
Catherine Coley:
I mean, it’s certainly something that we can look into. One of the benefits of being a local partner to a global partner that is Binance is the technology that they’re building, we’re able to license and use, and provide for our users. So, every day, practically, when Binance builds something new, it’s kind of another component that I can factor into our product here in the US. So, that’s really how we see the benefit of a US market being able to still take place with a global ecosystem.
So, understanding whether it is components of Binance Academy, or, you know, we see their growth of DEX with futures, with lending, with staking. Like, all of those components in the build-out that Binance is working on, we absolutely can process and bring in. It’s just up to us to make sure that we’re doing it in a way that is within the US regulation, with the US user in mind, and that will build that bridge between someone that is a Binance US app user, sometimes that’s a Binance.com user. They’ll have a lot more things in common than they think, but they’re both protected in their right ways of where they’re operating.
So, I think that’s more of this global phenomenon that I see, is a huge benefit of Binance. It’s a huge benefit of Bitcoin. It’s something that we’re bridging the barriers that people have normally had, and why things have been unknown. And so, if you can have a common bond around the world based on the fact that you trade your digital assets on something that is, you know, black and gold, that’s more common of a bond that you had than you had ten years ago.
And I think there’s something fantastic about finding similarities around the world in scope of diversity, that, really, crypto itself has done wonders for, and we need to preserve that narrative, instead of celebrate, you know, the alienating one, or the division of tribalism. There’s something far more beautiful about being able to understand that you’ve got the best trading technology in the United States, and you also have the best trading technology in a global arena.
You are not left behind. You’re understanding these markets crisply. You can really gain a lot of awareness around how the rest of the world is working.
Laura Shin:
One other aspect of work that Binance is doing that looks like it could bump up against some of the regulations here in the US centers around the BNB token, which looks like it could be classified as a security in the US. Just going by the Howey Test, I think people could argue that it is an investment contract in a common enterprise with profits dependent on a third party, which in this case would be Binance. So, I know that Binance US does enable people to use the BNB token. So, how did you determine that BNB was safe to use here on Binance US?
Catherine Coley:
Yeah, I mean, just like any other token that we listed, we went through our digital asset risk assessment framework, which is, you know, 75 points of understanding how this token would be both available for our US users and compliant within our measures for maintaining US regulations. So, you know, with comfort, we’ve been able to see the benefit of BNB offering trading discounts for our users, and I think there’s an additional amount of utility that we see BNB providing, whether it’s down the line with Binance Charity Foundation, and other aspects where we can really build in and build upon the utility that we see with the chain itself.
You’ve seen countless projects build on top of it. You’ve seen it be super, you know, useful in terms of the payments mechanism as well. So, I think there’s just a, you know, people can argue many sides of it. We’re comfterful with it through our digital asset risk assessment framework, and you know, we’ll always be evaluating and reevaluating the coins we’ve listed to make sure that they’re still within our digital asset risk assessment framework, based on the regulation at the time, but regulatory clarity is an evolving process.
And we are, you know, as you know, keenly listening and in the right conversations in DC, and also part of the Chamber of Digital Commerce to make sure that we can ensure the acceptance and the use of digital assets in the US.
Laura Shin:
Yeah. Just looking at the data points, which are few and far between, but at least some already exist, obviously we saw what happened with KICK and its kin cryptocurrency, and I would classify this as an example of a token that was very closely associated with a company where the SEC, you know, pretty much said very clearly, like, this is a scenario where it would fit the Howey Test. Recently, we also saw with Telegram, they published a blog post where they also very clearly dissociated themselves from the Gram cryptocurrency, even to the point of saying that this notice superseded anything that was in the white paper.
And some of the things they said in that blog post were that Telegram will have no control over the TON network, and that the TON Wallet will not be integrated with the Telegram messenger service. And so, I just wondered, you know, when you see these developments, does that at all give you pause about the BNB token?
Catherine Coley:
No.
Laura Shin:
And why not?
Catherine Coley:
It’s a scenario-by-scenario case. You know, I think each time you see an example or a case made, it’s appropriate to evaluate it at that point, but these are all part of the process going forward. I’m still comfterful with our assessment.
Laura Shin:
All right. In October, several exchanges came together to form the Crypto Rating Council. Some people, on Twitter especially, of course, smirked at the idea of such a council. They seemed to indicate that they thought it was a conflict for the exchanges, and that the exchanges could not be impartial judges of whether or not a token is a security. What do you think of the idea of the council, and is Binance US interested in joining?
Catherine Coley:
Yeah, that launched right after we had opened our doors, so we were not involved in any of those conversations, and I think that’s, you know, it’s always interesting to be the outside man, and one that, we’re comfterful with our own measures for following the framework and working with regulators. I think that the amount of detail we have in our framework is, you know, one that is what I’m proud of. That amount of scrutiny that we go through for each project is not trivial.
And so, you know, the components that I found difficult with the CRC was around the limited explanations that they had for the rating, and then the bullet points to follow up just, you know, seemed a little bit light for how serious we take assessing tokens. So, I’m fully confident in those teams individually being good stewards of the market, and I think that they probably had the best intentions going through with this, but you know, it’s one where we see there being strength in individually being excellent at reviewing your token versus ganging up.
Laura Shin:
Binance is, also offers services like margin trading, and it’s actually quite popular there with 45 percent of users on Binance engaging in margin trading. What would need to happen for Binance US to be able to offer margin trading?
Catherine Coley:
Well, a lot, but what, components that every day we’re working on trying to, as I kind of said, translate these attractive products from a global perspective to a US market and a US user. So, really breaking it down to what is the component that people are excited about in margin trading, and how can we factor that into current licensing requirements, regulation in the US. You know, aspects of a futures market are entirely different in the US, as well as a global scale, and we see that with, you can’t translate global futures matching engines into the same element in the US, goes through a clearinghouse with an FCM.
You know, there are components that are just built differently, and we’re aware of all those factors. So, that’s something that we just factor into our recipe, and go forward.
Laura Shin:
And Binance has also started offering lending. Is that something Binance US is looking into?
Catherine Coley:
Another component, we kind of look at the laundry list that Binance.com has, and I kind of salivate like a kid in a candy store, realizing what I can bring to the US user. I just have to prioritize where it fits in with regulatory ease and access, and you know, really what’s right right now for the US to gain access, I think there’s, I’m always aware that if you create an extremely complicated product early, early, early on, you won’t be able to cater to a larger market. And one of the components that is, you know, one on one on healthy markets is being able to have adequate liquidity.
So, catering to the niche, niche, point-point-zero-zero-one percent of crypto users really is still at a disadvantage this early on into understanding these markets. So, you know, we’re building things out in a method that we think is appropriate for getting the most kind of broad scale of US users familiar, comfterful with our platform, with our app, with our trading pairs, and then being able to kind of bring them with this journey of where they want us to go as well.
So, the need for lending or even a product that has yield has been a huge component that we’ve seen very attractive when people cannot, you know, time Alpha as well as they need in a market. So, being able to earn yield on a passive amount of crypto holdings is a fantastic product, one that I definitely see down the line as something we’d want to be offering to our users, because it makes sense as something counter to the traditional markets, which would be holding your money in cash, earning nothing, or, you know, not understanding the benefits of compound interest.
Laura Shin:
And what about the Binance Launchpad? Is that something you ever seen Binance US offering, or, you know, offering something similar?
Catherine Coley:
Something similar? When you think about the breakdown of kind of IEOs in the US, and the pendulum has kind of swung both ways. You’ve seen it go highly popular to highly unpopular, to maybe coming back in the middle of the road, so, really assessing where we are with regulation, where we are with the comfort of the market, and what’s the appetite for new coins to be, you know, launched onto an exchange. I think they are really all the factors we consider.
And so, it’s something that, again, on the cards, but probably for Q1, I mean, when we first launched a large part of what we were working on was just getting us up to par, where we were with our peers. So, getting an app was a huge, you know, a huge moment for us, to be able to now provide a mobile solution for our users. I can’t believe we launched with just a desktop and seven coins. You know, that’s night-and-day different to what we are right now, which is kind of incredible, when you think it’s only been roughly a hundred days since we’ve been alive, but…
Laura Shin:
How many people are you?
Catherine Coley:
We’re nine.
Laura Shin:
Wow.
Catherine Coley:
Yeah, so, we’re a scrappy group. I think that’s one of our benefits and advantages, though, is that having a nimble team that is catered specifically to the excellence of this product, we are keenly listening to our users, building in real time based on their feedback, you know, being able to target and address each aspect that we need to build in a way that is as fast as Binance does operate. I mean, the components that make Binance wonderful is that it always, it’s a go-getter.
You know, I wanted to be a part of a story that was a doer. I’m as much of a dreamer as well, but doing things and making things happen is something that is a wonderful feeling, and See Zee’s team, and the effort that they do, and the way that they just constantly build and reiterate and iterate, and ship products, it’s remarkable, and it’s unlike anything else I’ve seen. So, you know, being able to be part of that story and learning how the ecosystem has evolved within two years to be where they are, that’s an incredible energy to be a part of, and one that we definitely embody here in our team.
You know, we’re based in San Francisco, in DC. We come from the likes of previous fintech. I kind of always am looking for people that have had a couple tours of duty, whether it’s, you know, we’ve got Robin Hood, Western Union, bitFlyer, EY Blockchain, SoFi. Like, all of my team has seen one rotation from the traditional to the innovative, and now we’re on our kind of second or third turn to really know how we can better deliver products, better, you know, cater to the users, really having a keen ear to what people need.
Laura Shin:
Coinbase has begun offering custody for institutions and staking. Do see Binance US also offering similar services in the future?
Catherine Coley:
You know, one of the things that we really do pride ourselves on as well is freedom of choice. So, you know, there’s a benefit to being a one-stop shop. That certainly is what the institutions adore with having, you know, prime brokers do everything for you, and that’s something that crypto never offered. It kind of democratized the prime brokerage model, which made them a little uncomfterful, because they didn’t want to do that much work, and I don’t blame them.
They’re trading, you know, tons of assets and huge volumes. You don’t have time to, you know, log into your nano and click a bunch of buttons, but the elements that I find most exciting is that there are other institutional custody providers out there that are excelling in this space, and for us to compete directly with them, I think, would be just a little bit of a time-waste on our part. So, where I see this kind of evolving is that we provide a freedom of choice for people to custody their solutions at these various providers, but then be able to leverage the liquidity of Binance US itself.
So, we partnered with Tocogoni in that aspect for institutional clients that want to trade in the ways that they ideally would like to, but access the liquidity and the coins that we provide through our system. So, I see a similar model working in the custody component. You know, I also recognize that institutions aren’t going to keep all of their coins in one place, and so, naturally, we don’t want to be isolating ourselves from, preventing people from having that freedom to trade with us at any time by having something locked up with someone they’ve got to trade there. We more or less would like to facilitate this liquidity for everyone.
Laura Shin:
For now, crypto exchanges can charge fees like one percent, but in the future, that’s likely to trend down toward zero. What other forms of revenue is Binance US exploring?
Catherine Coley:
I mean, you think about just in what we’ve seen with traditional, you know, retail equity providers, with the drop to zero fees. I also, you know, having seen the margins on FX products, you think about these things called non-deliverable forwards, which are actually the way that Asian countries had to implement for currency restrictions following the Asian financial crisis. So, the non-deliverable forward was the means to which you could not be able to access the local, on-shore markets and currencies, and that’s, you know, a component that has brought another product to the market.
Those used to be highly liquid and very different from the spot market on-shore, and so, you’d have huge spreads that you were able to capture trading those, and that’s also why people didn’t trade them, is because they lost, there was a lot of inefficiencies in that market. I saw those spreads go down to, you know, nearly nothing in five years of the markets. So, I see that same thing happening at an accelerated rate here. We’ve dropped our fees to just, you know, ten basis points, and then if you use BNB, you get 25 percent off of trading fees.
So, you know, start your day off with really, really low trading fees. That’s, we’re already starting there, so, you know, additional revenue components that we can think about are elements where we see our users, where do they provide, or where do we provide value to them that is worth monetizing. And I think those components are going to be ever-changing, and we’ll see what really that value comes from it, but at the same time, we really just are focused on making sure that people have an easy access to these markets, and that we’re not having a barrier to entry to make ourselves, or make our business something that’s preventing technology from getting in the hands of users.
So, it’s a little bit of a different component versus the kind of Silicon Valley substitize, and you know, raise the price on our user. Our ethos is just different, and we can innovate upon that as we build out adoption.
Laura Shin:
You worked customer support for Binance for three days…
Catherine Coley:
Still do.
Laura Shin:
…mentioned…you still do?
Catherine Coley:
It was not three days, by the way. It’s still ongoing. So, it’s been about three months.
Laura Shin:
Nice.
Catherine Coley:
Or more, how long…since, September’s a long time ago. No, I’m still available on Twitter. You can still DM me, I’ll still chat with anyone and everyone, that is, if they’re polite and ask questions.
Laura Shin:
What are some things you’ve learned from doing that? Like, what are you noticing from the users, and…you know, more than just, like, what they’re requesting.
Catherine Coley:
Right, beyond that, it’s the geography difference that I didn’t know there were such vibrant communities inside of the United States, in states that I wasn’t even paying attention to. And so, kind of refocusing on the United States is really, I’m so curious and fascinated, and a lot of what 2020 will be spent on is visiting these communities and really understanding why it’s working, or where this, you know, where they see the adoption of crypto benefiting their own lifestyles and communities.
I think that’s just great and fascinating to see pockets of, whether it’s the university blockchain graduates that go on and now are pursuing crypto in their first jobs, and understanding, maybe their first paycheck isn’t going to be in US dollars. Mine was in Hong Kong dollars. So, that’s how I had to learn about FX so quickly, but you know, there’s a component to which we’re going to be seeing the seeds of native crypto adoption take place earlier on, and I think that’s a fascinating wave to be welcoming.
And so, whether it’s learning, people who have, I’d love to know what their day job is sometimes, if they have a day job. Sometimes their day job is just Binance, and I’m like, go for it, to the moon. Trade all day, I’m here for you, but you know, the different components that said, this is an equalizer for me, I’m able to pursue a passion of mine that might not be a financial advantage, and therefore, I can still follow the markets, take advantage of my capital, and access crypto to benefit my lifestyle, or benefit my future or my generation following.
So, that, to me, is the really great component. The other one is just to enjoy the, people love hoodies. So, you know, I’ve never seen people…actually, this is a true fact, I never wore a hoodie before I came to Binance, and I haven’t taken mine off since I started. So, I’m due for a laundry day, that’s for sure. There’s something that’s both comforting, but also really nice to be kind of part of a company that has such a culture, and being able to bring our flair to it in the US, and you know, be able to provide something that I think people will be not only proud to be a part of, but welcoming their friends to understand so that there’s, again, that common bond that we can start beginning to lower the stigma of involving in crypto, lower the stigma of financial ownership.
You know, I think it’s, we’ve gone miles from where we were. People discussing money was so taboo, and now, I talk about money every day. Like, it’s crypto. You know, there’s a community welcoming the ownership of your own capital, the growth and management. That’s a huge progression from where we’ve been, and I think that’s something that is smart for the world to take awareness of. It is engaging to see how it benefits and you know, allows for people to do more things than they have previously, being in their own financial burdens of their own societies.
But that’s something that’s just a huge component that I think is, I enjoy chatting with people. They might not even know I’ll get this philosophical with them on Twitter, until it’s, like, 4 in the morning, and I’m like, all right, guys, I got a podcast in the morning. I got to sign off. But that’s the human element to which I think I can never avoid, and I think we take for granted that we’re building products for humans at this stage, and we need to make sure that they work for humans, and that they are, that we are human in the process.
Laura Shin:
And last question, this is something I like to ask people who, I guess, have a familiarity with crypto in Asia as well, but since you’ve run a US version of a crypto company that came out of Asia, I was curious how you would compare the crypto trading cultures between Asia and the west?
Catherine Coley:
Yeah, it’s fascinating, localizing a product into a market that I know natively, having grown up here, but also have professionally grown up internationally. So, the light bulb effects of where the pain points are are a little dimmer here, versus every day in Asia, you are burdened by some form of an FX ruining or making your day. And so, I think that element of being able to provide the education in the US is super-important, but there’s still the, you know, human element of enjoying when you’re selling something higher than you buy it.
And so, that component is, you know, universal. The other elements are around kind of the referrals or the promotion, or how fast things can spread. You think about just how viral Asia is as a, you know, a community, where trends can be set and spread so quickly, given the concentration and the density of their cities, given the appetite and the awareness of tech and mobile and e-commerce that exists outside of the US. So, I think those are things that are such an advantage from the Asia focus.
I think it’s interesting to compare that and contrast with Europe as well, which is a different beast on its own, and one in the US that I take as well is the, you know, being the home for people’s digital asset trading is a common, we’re creating a comfortable space for them to know that we are building it exactly the way they want, and that customization is something that a US market really does care about. You know, we have a plethora of variety for people to choose from, but they want to choose the one that fits how they operate exactly.
And so, that’s really something that is a focus for us in the US, is catering our product to exactly the needs of an American user, whether that is, you know, natively our app is in dark mode, components of, it’s a simple UI. You’re going to be cleanly understanding what’s happening, you’ve got really straightforward components that are still top-notch, you know, part of the technology and the tech suite of the globally leading cryptocurrency marketplace.
So, I think that’s something that we really enjoy, but kind of can cater to, making sure that we’re, just keep it simple, is always a nice motto for the US, and they get it, but with simplicity does not mean stupidity. So, you know, they do want the advanced products and features. They do want to have more sophisticated products available in the near time. They do want to have that diverse variety of tokens to choose from. So, all of those components, I celebrate, but it’s pretty neat.
Laura Shin:
Great. Where can people learn more about you and Binance US?
Catherine Coley:
Absolutely. So, easiest place right now, we’ve got a couple, I call them bugles, or ways that we communicate. Twitter, follow us on @BinanceAmerica. We also have a Telegram announcements channel, which is fantastic just to, you know, it’s only the announcements that come out. So, that’s where you would’ve learned about our beta-testing of our app, and then our launch of our Android and our IOS app, and then any of the, you know, additional listing components come out through that channel.
You can also find us on our website, Binance.us. We have a blog that we keep updates on when we have, you know, new announcements of certain elements. You can follow me, I’m @CryptoColey. My DMs are open. If you have any help or needs, the customer support, it’s @BinanceUSHelp, and we’ll be there to answer. So, really looking forward to letting the US have, finally, the experience of Binance, but catered for them, and the US, now in their hands. So, download the app on the app store, the Google Play. We’re really excited to see, you know, where these communities can grow and be a part of a much larger global story.
Laura Shin:
Great. Well, thanks so much for coming on Unchained.
Catherine Coley:
Thank you so much. Really looking forward to, shout out to my listeners on United.
Laura Shin:
Thanks so much for joining us today. To learn more about Catherine and Binance US, check out the show notes inside your podcast player. Want to show your love for Unchained? Check out our T-shirts, mugs, hats, and stickers at shop.unchainedpodcast.com. Unchained is produced by me, Laura Shin, with help from Fractal Recording, Anthony Yoon, Daniel Nuss, Josh Durham, and the team at CLK Transcription. Thanks for listening.
