Afghan entrepreneur Roya Mahboob has launched numerous companies, but it was a blogging platform that presented her with the problem of how to pay her (mostly female) users, 99% of whom did not have bank accounts. And even if they did get paid, their families would often confiscate the money. She found her solution in Bitcoin, and later launched a new startup, Digital Citizen Fund, that trains girls in blockchain technology and Bitcoin. Mahboob, named one of the 100 most influential people in the world by Time magazine in 2013, funded the Afghan girls’ robotics team that made news recently, and describes what went on behind-the-scenes. She also tells us about her other ventures, EdyEdy, her coffee/tea venture Digital Citizen Brew, and the marketplace for Afghan goods that she is launching — which will accept Bitcoin or perhaps its own token.
Show notes
How bitcoin solved this serial entrepreneurs problems Digital Citizen Fund Roya’s Time 100 description, written by Sheryl SandbergTranscript
Laura Shin:
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Unchained, a podcast engineered by Fractal Recording and produced by me, your host, Laura Shin, a senor editor at Forbes covering all things crypto. Thanks for tuning in. If you’ve been enjoying this podcast, please help get the word out about the show. Share it on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, or in your Secret, Slack, and Telegram channels. And if you have a chance, please give the show a rating or review on iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
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I am recording here on Sir Richard Branson’s Necker Island, which is where the podcast was born a little over a year ago. I’m here again for the blockchain summit, which is hosted by the Bitfury Group and Bill Tai, who was a guest on the podcast last year, and whose amazing episode you should definitely check out. This year’s summit is where I met today’s guest, Roya Mahboob, a serial entrepreneur and president of Digital Citizen Fund, Digital Citizen Brew, and EdyEdy, and in 2013 she was named one of Time magazine’s 100 Most Influential People in the World. Welcome, Roya.
Roya Mahboob:
Thank you, Laura, for having me here.
Laura Shin:
So, Roya, out of all the Bitcoin entrepreneurs I’ve ever interviewed, I would say you have the most different and most inspiring story.
Roya Mahboob:
Thank you.
Laura Shin:
And you’re also using Bitcoin in one of the most different ways. So, you’re originally from Afghanistan. How did you get your start with technology?
Roya Mahboob:
Well, at age of 16 years old, I heard about that there is a box, that, a magic box that you can touch and you can connect with the world, and you can ask any question that you want, and then also you can talk with the people without meeting with them, and they are ready to answer your questions. So, for me, at age of 16, I hear that there is a club that’s open in Herat, and I went there, and that’s for the first time when I used the internet and used a computer. And I found out that there is a new world outside, waiting for me to explore it, and that’s when everything changed for me. From that point on, I decided to make technology the center of my career.
Laura Shin:
So, what were you doing back then? Like, was it just, like, you were Googling questions, or what?
Roya Mahboob:
I mean, before using the computer, or…?
Laura Shin:
Yeah, like, when you started.
Roya Mahboob:
Yeah, I was Googling, but then you put any, like, any words, you could get thousands of, I mean, user, could get a lot of the articles. That was very interesting, because at Herat in 2003, you know, the Taliban just left it, and it was very limited books in the library, and it was very old books, and mostly coming from Iran. And then, we didn’t have any updated information, and it was, for me, was fascinating that this small box you can do, you can find any information. Thousands of the books or millions of the books are available.
Laura Shin:
And did you speak English at that time?
Roya Mahboob:
No, it was in Farsi you could also find a lot of the information, but I learned English, actually, through social media, I mean, through chatting. I hear that there is Yahoo! Messenger, you could go to the public, and then you could chat with the people, and for me was interesting, but I was very shy and very unconfidence person. But when I started chatting with people, it’s increased my confidence, and I learn more, and I try to learn, and I had a book that, to checking the words, and in English, and I can write. So, that’s how I learned.
Laura Shin:
What, are you serious? Like, did you have any formal education in English?
Roya Mahboob:
Not that much. There was, like, some books that were available, and then, but later on I had classes in our university that I took it, because we had a, we were lucky and we had a German as our teacher. So, the only way to communicate with our teacher were English, was English.
Laura Shin:
Wow. That’s amazing. I’m so impressed with that. So, then you also started a company at a young age. How did you come to start your first company?
Roya Mahboob:
Well, I started working, writing with IT coordination for three years, and then I went to, moved to Ministry of Higher Education and worked as IT project manager of the IT department. And then, at that time, I meet with Paul Brinkley _________ 00:04:36. He was Undersecretary of Defense at that time, and…
Laura Shin:
Like, an American in…?
Roya Mahboob:
Yeah.
Laura Shin:
Okay.
Roya Mahboob:
And they were coming, and they had a concept to bring, like, building technology centers in Herat, and that they were discussed about that. But at that time, I say, okay, we created a lot of the software, and it was mostly free, and we showed those software and applications to a team that he brought from Silicon Valley, and everyone is encourage us, and then he said that, why we don’t make it commercialized, and then, that’s how I started the Afghan Citadel Software.
Laura Shin:
Interesting, wait, you developed it for the Ministry, but then you…
Roya Mahboob:
We developed for university and Ministry, but it was a team of the girls, mostly, and also there was boys as well, but we built those, most of the educational software free and giving to the public. We didn’t tell at that time that maybe we might be able to make it commercialized and make money, but then when they came and they discussing about big projects, and then they said why we don’t start it. And then, I started my first company, and at the same time, the Task Force for Business and Stability Operations, they builded an incubator in Herat, and then…
Laura Shin:
I’m sorry, who was it that built…?
Roya Mahboob:
Task Force for Business Stability Operation…
Laura Shin:
Okay.
Roya Mahboob:
It was a program by the DoD of US. So…
Laura Shin:
The Department of Defense.
Roya Mahboob:
Yeah.
Laura Shin:
Okay.
Roya Mahboob:
They builded the incubator, the first incubator in Herat, and they brought IBM and Google, but IBM were, the IBM advisor, mentor, reminder. I was one of seven companies that were, we were in that incubator.
Laura Shin:
And what did your company do, and what was it called?
Roya Mahboob:
It was called Afghan Citadel Software. Before that incubator build, we started to working in, like, coffee shop and restaurants, because we didn’t have a place to work. And my work was, we provided services in IT infrastructure, procurement of the computers, building the networks for, like, universities or, and then also we building software or giving the consultancy on the applications.
Laura Shin:
So, like IT services?
Roya Mahboob:
Yes, IT, full IT services for…
Laura Shin:
And how old were you when you started that company?
Roya Mahboob:
I was 23.
Laura Shin:
Wow. That’s amazing.
Roya Mahboob:
Yes.
Laura Shin:
And who were your investors and clients? Like, how did you find business?
Roya Mahboob:
Well, I was trying first to working with US government, and then, it was good, working with the US government. We could make money with the contracts, but the problem was that people were conservative, and because we were mostly female, engineers today didn’t like that we worked with them. So, they started rumors and giving our names to Taliban conservative leaders. So, we decided to work on the government, Afghan government’s contracts. But then, the other problem was having government contract, was that based on the law, women could get participated.
But once you get a contract, they make your lives like a hell, to giving, paying your payments. So, where, my biggest problem was that corruption was, exists at that time, and many of the contracts I made to government, and then the other problem that I had was that they don’t paying on time.
Laura Shin:
And I want to go back earlier, when you were saying, like, when you were trying to get private clients, they were giving your names to who again?
Roya Mahboob:
No, the private clients didn’t give us our names. I mean, when I was starting working for the US government to, for some of the contacts, or NATO, so, then conservative and the people who didn’t like that, they giving our names to the local Taliban informant, that these people, the women, they are working with military. So, that was…
Laura Shin:
But what was the purpose of that? They’re giving your names to the Taliban…
Roya Mahboob:
Because they sent threats to us, and they didn’t want…
Laura Shin:
What kind of threats?
Roya Mahboob:
…yeah. Like, death threats, or they will, just telling you that you shouldn’t work with them, or you are, like, not anymore Muslim. So, they making a lot of names for you. It was not only that you worked for the US government, also it was, the broader problem was that if you were caught with a man outside, it wasn’t at all acceptable. And I was ________ 00:08:48 started in technology, we were the first company as a female that was a CO, but we had also male coworker, but the problem is that our, most of my, it wasn’t problem, but it was problem for the society of conservative and male-dominated that many of my employees were women, and the young girls.
So, that wasn’t acceptable if you’re ________ 00:09:10 or we work with the, we go to the military places and became everyone’s ________ 00:09:16. Like, a lot of Boomers said, they were, like, mentioned that we were get these contracts, or if we were because of our ability, because of, we have the ability and we have talented to work, as they make rumors, they were blah blah, that’s why they get the contracts. So, them making that rumors was danger for our reputation, as well, to living in that conservative society.
Laura Shin:
And you also mentioned that they put a spy in your company?
Roya Mahboob:
It was after that I became as a Time 100. They started putting a spy in my company, because my company grew very fast, and then I started to hire a lot of the women, and also the men, to working inside of my company, and also work online for me. And then, my competitors didn’t like that, and they are mostly, we call them Mafia fighting ________ 00:10:11 because they get the most, like, at that time they got all the biggest contracts in IT. So, they put in a spy to giving information of my, whatever I had in projects, what I’m doing and everything else outside.
Laura Shin:
Wow. And also, the government, it sounds like, was making things difficult for you. So, how did you solve these problems?
Roya Mahboob:
Well, it was very difficult, because in government at that time, it was like, it was elections going on, and then President Karzai didn’t sign the agreement, former President Karzai, he didn’t sign the agreement. The security wasn’t that good. It wasn’t only for my company, was for many of the companies at that time, they had the challenges of very difficult times with the government. And the problem with the government, they didn’t support my work, so that was biggest challenges, because when I went to complaining and asking them to support, they never, like, really very supportive of, to help me at that time.
Laura Shin:
And you also mentioned during the summit that your employees were even attacked? What happened?
Roya Mahboob:
Well, when, it was in 2012. _________ 00:11:17 what’s happening. After then, I did a contracts, what was a contract, where then I pushed back my society because they started to make rumors, and then they also put that they broken our window of our office. And then they sended threats in my house, and then that’s, I moved to Kabul, and I decided, my team were in Herat, but I decided to stay in Kabul, to not only to be more safe, but also just because Kabul was a bigger place that we could find the clients.
Then I decided that, okay, I should not rely on the contracts anymore, and I shouldn’t be relying the private sectors, that they don’t want to work with a woman. And I decided to become a digital citizen. I’m using the advantage of the free market, and finding the clients outside of the border. So, that’s why I reached out through the LinkedIn, and someone invite me to the LinkedIn, to ________ 00:12:12. Then I was, I went there, and said, wow, that is a great place. I started to find clients there, and that was, lead me to find investor there, that he was ________ 00:12:22 New York.
We never met, and he contact me, and then we discussing about different projects, and then he interested in one of my ideas and one of our projects, and he invested, and then, my, that investment helped me to make money with advertising and network, and traffic. And then, I decided to giving back to the community. So, when I start to giving back to the community, rebuilding the IT centers inside of the schools, and then we teaching the girls about how to work with computer…
Laura Shin:
And is all of this the Digital Citizen Fund?
Roya Mahboob:
Digital Citizen Fund, yeah, now they are all moved to under Digital Citizen Fund’s umbrella. At that time, my company building with the profits that we made, we did, we had a platform called Woman Annex.
Laura Shin:
Okay, but keep going with how you were doing that. You were building these education centers?
Roya Mahboob:
So, I mean, at that time, I feel that, okay, I mean, I could overcome lots of the challenges, and it’s because of the technology and internet. It’s helped me to not connected to border of country ________ 00:13:33, or a country that some people can make a decision about my life or my company. And I overcome a lot of challenges, struggles that we had, and it’s also break down the barriers for me, but I knew that there are still millions of the girls who are outside. They’re just like me, they’re curious, but given no ________ 00:13:57.
They wanted to know more, but they don’t know what’s truly possible for them, and that’s, I decided to giving back. I talked with my partner, my business partner, and he was totally agree, and he says, and this is, I said 50 percent of shared profits, it was 100 percent to building these centers. And that’s how we started building the IT centers. We first decided we’d do one in schools, rebuilding the one IT center for them, and we got a lot of the positive, and see the girls, when I see those girls go online for the first time, it always bring the memories of the first time I used the internet at a café in Herat.
You could literally see the changes in your face. These women and girls, they have their entire life just talk with close relatives and family member, and this is that they are connected to the world, and they have a digital voice, they have a voice to talk about your stories that no one wanted at that time listen to them, and those are _______ 00: 14:55 that these women and girls their entire life depending on the men, and for the first time, with the skills of the technology, with the skill of the internet, they feel the financial independence. And this is, has the power how the conservative nations can change their view on the woman.
So, when I started this, building these centers, we also started providing training for them, and then we says, okay, they’re learning, so what’s the next? Finding opportunities to find a job for them, so the platform that we builded with Francesco was called Woman Annex. It was a technology that allowed the women to write blogs and upload movies, and they’re working online, and we pay to those who write the original content and better content, we pay for some of the content provided for. And that’s _______ 00:15:49 that we can keep continue, and at that time, I had hundreds of people who start to working for me online, and we had to build two office, one in Herat, one in Kabul.
And then, we started to hiring people, not only from female, but also from male, that we, they do marketing. It was easier to do it through men, to go to work with private sectors and talking easier than woman to deal with them. So, that’s how I started to work.
Laura Shin:
And I actually want to go back to when you stopped working with Afghan companies and the government, and found your own clients outside. Where did you find those clients?
Roya Mahboob:
Mostly through LinkedIn.
Laura Shin:
Right, but like, what countries, and…?
Roya Mahboob:
Mostly was in America, and then, the good thing is that when I found this, my business partner, and he started to, like, when he was in my company, in my idea, we’d shift our contract-based to only focusing on working on that platform, Woman Annex, and ________ 00:16:49. So, we shift…
Laura Shin:
So, actually it was just a blog, okay.
Roya Mahboob:
Yeah, and that platform is, make us enough money that we can continue.
Laura Shin:
And the money, you were generating revenue from ads?
Roya Mahboob:
It was from advertising on a network, and all the site traffic. We got 6,000 of the public domain, and also from private filmmakers, donated in our platform so we could generated views, and that, we had, like, two million, some _______ 00:17:20, and then we had also, the months that we had five million viewers that, they came to our platform.
Laura Shin:
Great, and I actually just want to ask you about your family. Did they fully support you in all this, or did they also have reservations?
Roya Mahboob:
When I was started, before I started my company, my family, my father was very open mind, and that’s why, I mean, he was very supportive of what I do, my mom as well. And then, my brother were at the beginning conservative. I mean, of course, we were living in conservative and very male-dominated country, and that’s why they were at the beginning not happy, but when I started to, social media really empowered me, and I started to talk at the home, I’ve been given the ideas, and at the beginning they ignore, start ignoring whatever I had an idea.
But later on, they started seeing differently, and then, it’s very, very important when you’re living in such conservative societies to have support of the family. If I didn’t have the support of my family, I wouldn’t be able to do any of these things. Of course, I motivate my family, I involved them with everything I did, and that’s why they keep continue to support me. And I mean, where there was a time that the neighbors and the men in our Herat community, they came to my father, and they told that they have to stop me, he has to stop me, he had to stop me because I am dishonor the family, and I’m working with the military, I’m working with the foreigns, and I’m taking pictures, it’s not good for a Muslim woman…
Laura Shin:
Wait, I’m sorry, who was this that came to your family and said that?
Roya Mahboob:
It’s a, when you, like, our society is different. Like, the community members are, like, the _______ 00:19:06 or the people that they knows my father, they reach out to friends of my father and the people who work, my father worked with them. So, they came and they told my father he has to stop, and is, otherwise I might be, end up to be very bad, like, dishonoring the families. They had to stop it now.
Laura Shin:
And what did your father say?
Roya Mahboob:
My father says that he, he said that he fully trusts me, and he knows what I’m doing, and he’s involved in everything. He would not stop me, and that’s why I keep continue, but of course, at that point, when the, I would receive attacks as well, it wasn’t a good time to stay in Herat, so that’s why I left to Kabul.
Laura Shin:
Okay, and then is it at Digital Citizen Fund that you were having difficulty paying your users?
Roya Mahboob:
It was with the Woman Annex platform. So, that’s, we had to fix all this, because the number of the user increased, and then we had the problem of the paying students, and many of these female students, they didn’t have a bank account. Almost 99 percent of them didn’t have a bank account.
Laura Shin:
And why not?
Roya Mahboob:
Because based on the law of Afghanistan, women can have a bank account when they become 18 years old, but based on the culture, it was mostly cultural barriers, and then, many of the family didn’t really want a banking system. It’s silly, when it’s not about the female, I guess that maybe only 50 percent of the Afghans trust the bank. They’re still using the hawala system. I don’t know if you hear about hawala system, is, hawala system is, started in 8th century, is for many years was the only way, trustful transfer of the money.
So, it’s like, I trust someone, and then I give the money to this person, and this person knows another person’s to, and then that person, you call that person and leave a code to that person, and that person gives the money to others. It’s like…
Laura Shin:
Oh my God.
Roya Mahboob:
It’s kind of, like, a similar to Bitcoin, but it’s not, like, very, but it’s kind of, that’s, many still in Afghanistan and many other countries still using the hawala system.
Laura Shin:
It’s like an 8th-century Bitcoin.
Roya Mahboob:
Yeah. They call the Bitcoins the 21st-century of hawala system, so…
Laura Shin:
That’s hilarious, I love it.
Roya Mahboob:
Yeah, and then, so, the problem that, and then there was also their issues that a woman, I mean, the banking’s the same, they have to go to the bank, Roger said they have to have everybody else, documents, and hey have to have permission of the families, and family didn’t want to open a bank account for them. So, it was a lot of the struggle that we had, and then we decided to use a PayPal account, and PayPal didn’t work in Afghanistan.
And then, we decided to use Mobile Money, it was ________ 00:22:02, and then the problem with Mobile Money was if you send the money, it still was expensive, because the receiver and transfer still caught the money. So, it wasn’t very affordable that we send that through that, and at that time, it wasn’t really important. They had this concept for years _______ 00:22:20 program, but at the time that we wanted, they didn’t really meant it in a way that we could use it. So, we were just looking to find a base, because the number of users getting increased, and we didn’t know how to pay these employees.
And for me, it was difficult, because the money came to my bank account, and then it was also danger for me because if people find out she has a lot of money, the kidnapping and the stoling the money was _______ 00:22:48, and every time that I went to the bank to get the money to distribute it, I had to brought my brother, cousin, and also my older male employees to go with me to the bank to get the money, and we go together, because it was difficult.
And then, the other problem was, with the money, when you distribute the money, we didn’t only had the female who write the blogs, but we also had some male. But some of them, especially from male, they get the money, and then they came back and deny, and you show them the signature, and they say, “This is not my signature.” So, this was other issue that…
Laura Shin:
Wait, I don’t understand. They deny what?
Roya Mahboob:
They deny that they get the money. So…
Laura Shin:
Like, they want to be paid a second…?
Roya Mahboob:
Yeah, for the second time, and then, it was another challenges for my employees to managing of how, like, keeping their course of these people, that they get paid, and then, like, they want a second time. It’s like, we had these difficulties a lot, and…
Laura Shin:
Actually, I also want to go back when you said you had to go to the bank with your male relatives and employees. Like, the bank account was in your name, right?
Roya Mahboob:
Yeah.
Laura Shin:
So, I don’t understand…
Roya Mahboob:
The reason…to protect us, to get the money from the bank and going back to the home. At that time, there were a lot of, like, criminal, that if they find out that you have a lot of money in the bank, and when you go, coming back and forth, it was more safe to go with a couple of men.
Laura Shin:
Right.
Roya Mahboob:
It was more, like, I think I wouldn’t have had the trust of the people in the bank, or we didn’t trust it, why am I ________ 00:24:19 decide to have some people to protect us to go in bank. And then, the other thing, there are all sort of issues that I have to give the money to different schools and different people to come, and then they distributed the money to the users. And it was challenging for us to keep record of every person. Bulk-banking was good if we could send to everybody, and we could keep every records, but unfortunately they didn’t have the bank account.
Laura Shin:
So, how did you hear about Bitcoin?
Roya Mahboob:
So, my former business partner Francesco sent me an article about Bitcoin, and he says, “What do you think about this?” And then I was reading, I was a bit skeptical, and then I said, “What does it aid?” And then I was reading, and then he keep sending me the article, and he was so fascinated about Bitcoins, and he said, “Roya, I’m going to move to Bitcoins,” and I said at that time, I think the price of Bitcoin was 800 dollar, 2013, I guess, but then I said, “That’s interesting,” but when I read about the concept, it was so similar to hawala system.
Laura Shin:
Right.
Roya Mahboob:
And I was like, okay, so maybe I can explain to the people easier, and then, when I started to tell students that having our, the users, how we’re going to pay them, I was, used the hawala, and then I just told them that this is a newer… (talking over each other)
Laura Shin:
That’s amazing. I love it, and it’s crazy to me that the system didn’t change from the 8th century until the 21st century, but they replaced it with the digital version of the same old system. That’s a weird thing.
Roya Mahboob:
Yeah, but I mean, Bitcoins has a lot of feature, I mean, blockchain and Bitcoin has a lot of features, that they can keep records and a lot of other things. But it still was a very easy to explain to everybody, and I said that this is a money that you can keep it. I mean, you know, ________ 00:26:07 for Afghans, when they don’t touch their something, it was difficult, what I said, when you talking about, like, hawala system, what’s easier, that they can understand, so I told them that they can keep their monies in digital wallet.
And then, the good thing is also, was in the way that we brought the Bitcoins in Afghanistan was that when the students at that time, when the females ask to make money, some of the family take away, they force the money from them, and they, like, they couldn’t buy the things that they want. It was always when they make money, someone is taking from them, and then, and I wanted that they have a freedom of their, what they make it. And of course, I was totally supporting that you can support your families, but also for those who wanted to save it and wanted to keep it for their future, for their education, or for whatever they need it for, for their lives, it was good to keep it in that, there in digital wallet.
So, we teach them about how to build up the e-wallet, and then how to keep the Bitcoins there, and then, that’s how we profit. Another challenge was to how they make it cash, in case they need it. So, then, my company decided to also make them cash in the rate of what’s in the market, and then we also _______ 00:27:22 with a couple of the shops that at that time, if the students have interest in Bitcoin, to encourage them, they can _______ 00:27:29. So, we talked with some of the shops that they had clothes in, and uniform for the school or going outside, and they accepted in case that we admittedly make for them cash, we discussed with them.
We teach them about Bitcoin. So, it was going well, and we decided also to talking about, and then there was also time that we decided to building, there was ________ 00:27:56. The students who are making Bitcoins, if they wanted to buy online books, so then we could buy for them online books.
Laura Shin:
Like a debit card.
Roya Mahboob:
Yeah, and then we received books in our office, and then we could sell that to Afghanistan, distribute it to the students. And we encouraged many of these students to keep their Bitcoins to, if they go on, like, if they couldn’t go to university in Afghanistan, they can study online and paying for the university in Bitcoins, or they can make it to cash later. And that was how we started in 2015, and 2014, and the platform worked very well, and then we started working in Pakistan, we started paying the users in Pakistan. We started also in Egypt. We started in Mexico, and it’s growing very fast.
Laura Shin:
How many users were you…?
Roya Mahboob:
We had more than 60,000 subscription, and they used ________ 00:28:49 I guess at 25 percent was trying to contribute it, but some of them rarely contributed, and you make more money. And there was a, also, another reason that we ______ 00:28:59 when the user increased, the money that we had get less and less, because we had to distribute it to many of the contributor, and I found out that ______ 00:29:14 quality that you get more money. So, there was all a decision that we decided to make a new platform _______ 00:29:25 EdyEdy platform, and it still is under development, but that’s my next platform that I’m going to work on that.
Laura Shin:
Okay, so, we’re going to break now for a very important word from our sponsor, ONRAMP, but we’ll come back and learn more about EdyEdy.
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So, yeah, why don’t you continue with EdyEdy? What are your goals there?
Roya Mahboob:
So, with EdyEdy, we are trying to bridge the gap between education and job markets, and we are trying to educating the kids and the teenagers, mostly, to learn about vocational skills that created a job for them later in the market. And we, right now we are in very early stage, and we hope that this would be my next company. I brought the platform that we builded in the US, and ________ 00:30:51, and we got offer of investment, and hopefully we get the money, and we can start to work on this platform.
Laura Shin:
But what did you do with the, was in Women X?
Roya Mahboob:
Woman Annex, end of 2014, we closed the platform, and then we decided to just provide a training blockchain, and what blockchain is, and what the Bitcoin is, keep continue to ________ 00:31:18.
Laura Shin:
Through the same organization?
Roya Mahboob:
Yeah.
Laura Shin:
Okay.
Roya Mahboob:
And then, right now, we train the girls just to learn about Bitcoin concept. They’ll learn about how to make a wallet, and right now they also started to learn about Ethereum, and they learn also about blockchains. So…
Laura Shin:
Is it like teaching them to code, in addition?
Roya Mahboob:
Yes. With additional funds, we provide training in coding. They learn about how to code, and they learn about ICT, from first day started to learn how to work with computers, because many of them, they never saw a computer, or they never had access to computer. So, we provide the training from basic. They learn about computer, then they learn about social media After social media, the students who are in advanced classes, then they can to learn about coding. When they learn about coding, they learn about Bitcoin’s concept.
They learn about blockchain. They learn about Ethereum, and they learn about the concept of this, because I believe that education and awareness is a great thing, since we can promote and advocate it, that how our governments use blockchain in future. And that’s how we have to start it, from earliest age, early ages, that teaching to kids, and they are very, like, very wanting to learn, and they are more interested to learn. We also through ________ 00:32:32 funds provide financial literacy, that has just started, teaching the kids that, how to manage the money from level of home to entrepreneurship.
So, when we say that we came to advance classes, we combine of, those students who learn about coding, we take the students who work with learn about financial literacy to startup businesses. So, we have one hundred women this year that started to, working together, or they started by themselves, startups in five industries, in culture, food, fashion, handcraft, and robotic and games.
Laura Shin:
Yeah. Well, so, maybe you can give some examples of some of the companies, but then I want to talk about the robotics, too.
Roya Mahboob:
Sure. We had one student that, she came to our classes to learn about coding and also social media. She learned about ice cream, a dessert, I mean, she learned how to make an ice cream from an Italian recipe, and she went back home, and she told her father that she wanted to start a business in ice cream. And her father, she’s crazy, and he didn’t want to listen. For six months, she had this struggle to convince her father to get a machine of, to make ice cream. And then, her father told her that she only can do it for her relatives, only the family, not outside, because her father was, felt that shame or whatever, he didn’t want to support her.
But then, she started to do it, and then the neighbors and the relatives started to order, and giving for, like, the events and the parties that they had, she made very, very delicious ice cream. Right now, she’s distributing to all the restaurants in Herat.
Laura Shin:
Wow.
Roya Mahboob:
And her father, brothers, and mom joined her business, and working as a family…
Laura Shin:
And they’re all working for her.
Roya Mahboob:
All working, and she’s a boss.
Laura Shin:
Love it.
Roya Mahboob:
Yeah, and then, we have another student _______ 00:34:26 culture. Her father had a farm, big farms, but her father had to struggle to, how to make money with the farms that they had, and agriculture business. And her daughter ________ 00:34:39, she’s coming to her classes, and she learn about the business class and how to make the business plan and marketing and accounting and everything. And she also learned about how to coding, so she came to her father and she told about her business idea. Her father also didn’t want to listen to her, and then she reached to her teacher, and the teacher convinced the father, come to the classes and listen to her pitch.
And then her father, for the first time listening to her daughter speech of the business, and the ego of the men that, you know, never like listening to daughters, her father was really, like, impressed with her daughter, and it was, has never come to his mind that her daughter capable of this, and she can do it, she can ________ 00:35:25, and now her father change all of his business, based on what her daughter suggest her…
Laura Shin:
Wow.
Roya Mahboob:
And now, not only they ________ 00:35:35 and they make a packet and they bring it to market, it was interesting that no one has come to their mind that they can do, try this ________ 00:35:43 and make money, and this is ________ 00:35:44 from Iran. They always, like, for years and years we brought from Iran, but no one taught it, to do it, very simple things, and she did. And then, now she’s working on her web site to make online business into selling the dried fruits and everything that they have in their farms, to make a dry…
Laura Shin:
Wow. So, going back to the robotics, I also know that you sponsored that girls’ robotics team that made so much news recently, but it almost didn’t happen. Tell the story of the obstacles they faced, and how they overcame them.
Roya Mahboob:
Sure, and Afghanistan team, I mean, we started about robotic in the end of 2016, when, so, it’s just like, the president of our school ________ 00:36:30 contact me, and he told me about their amazing program that he has, and he wanted to do first Olympic game in DC, and he asked me if I knew a team of teenagers in high school, that they can participate from Afghanistan. So, I started really to research about, to finding this team, but I couldn’t. It was difficult, and then I said, “Well, I have all the programs in my school, so why shouldn’t I start a team of the girl to come for robotics,” because everyone thinks ________ 00:37:00 robotics for boys.
So, we made it, take test exams from 150 students. We took 22, and then get 20, and then to 15 of the students to come to our program. But it probably wasn’t, when we started, we had a problem of the training, and because many of these kids didn’t know about robotic, and some of them, they know a little bit about for, like, very simple concept of robotics, and there were times that, like, the families talked their daughters out of the programs, because the they say that first they don’t want to let their girls go to US, and then what robotics means.
So, they talk all these six families _______ 00:37:44, and then, we had probably the electricity ________ 00:37:49, of course, again with the training and trainer. Then in March of 2017, in first school was some robotic kids, and they stay in our _______ 00:38:04 wants to give the robot kids, because they have never saw something like this came to Afghanistan, and they see that ________ 00:38:12 maybe it’s come to the wrong hands, and be, ISIS use it against the government, so they didn’t want to give to us. And then, we keep getting to talk with them, and we brought all the documents and show them, but they didn’t work.
They didn’t care. We told them that it’s the computation, when they hear that this is a female team, so they didn’t care at all at the time. So, they didn’t want to give _______ 00:38:33.
Laura Shin:
This is just the components to build the robots?
Roya Mahboob:
Yes.
Laura Shin:
Wow.
Roya Mahboob:
Then, we had these challenges, and the girls went for the first time to do the interview in the US embassy. And unfortunately, _______ 00:38:50 decision of the consular, they were rejected. The entire team rejected, and they came back, and we talked with _______ 00:38:58, and then he talked with the state department, and then he says, “Okay, we will give another chance to the girls to come, for the second time.” And then, meanwhile, we still keep, continue to ask the government to give us the robotic kits that we can work with that, and they didn’t. So, then the girls started to working with the ________ 00:39:17 plastic and start building their own small robot, to learn how to work, they build, like, small cars.
They build a train, they build for themselves to dry hair. And then, the building is a small office, and ________ 00:39:38 continue, and then meanwhile, they for the second time interview, and unfortunately the second time was in the middle, the appointment was at the time that, if you remember, was early of June, and there was an attack in Kabul. There was a protest that was going on, was so bad, it was three days after, it was three times attack, and there was protest that in the streets, and the security wasn’t good at all. And the families didn’t want to let the girls to come at that time.
And then, many of these girls then crying, and asking, begging their families to allow them for the second chance at least they have opportunity to come and present the robots in this competition. But at the end, the family allowed for one day. We brought the kids to Kabul, and then we sent them to embassy with the hope that at least a few of them get accept. But unfortunately again, everyone’s rejected, and it was quite upsetting to see that, our entire team rejected…
Laura Shin:
And what was the embassy’s reason?
Roya Mahboob:
Well, there was a couple of things, they don’t tell exactly the reason, but there was a couple of things, was one is that the limited number of the B1, B2, for Afghan citizens, and then, second, that there was another concern, is that maybe the girls stay, want to stay in the United States, so, which, we ________ 00:41:05 that these kids were under the age of 18, they couldn’t speak English. And the other problem of the family, was very difficult to get their families’ permission to come for one week. In any case, the girls back and were very upset, disappointed with the decision, but then the girls decided to build the robot anyway. They wanted to send…so, they built the robot during Ramadan, and then before ________ 00:41:33 they complete robots, and then they send it to the US.
And then, we try to find another team of Afghan-Americans here to be representative of them, but in meanwhile, we started to also, when we find out that we are only one of two teams in 163 countries that they get, we are one of two countries that denied the result. We were, get upset at that, because my students _______ 00:42:00 says that, “I always thought the Americans are our friends, because of 15 years of relationship with the United States, and what United States and other ________ 00:42:10 did for us, like, to, in terms of woman empowerment, in terms of the education of women, in terms of the woman rights and democracy.”
So, we couldn’t believe that our team of girls couldn’t come here, but ________ 00:42:24, like Pakistan, Iran, Sudan, all of them could come in, but our team couldn’t get in.
Laura Shin:
So, but then…
Roya Mahboob:
And then, we started to talk with the press, and _______ 00:42:38 was Forbes, and the first one, and then after that, a lot of other media and press contacted us, and we continued to talk with them, and they, I mean, I think it was power of the media, so…
Laura Shin:
So, finally President Trump felt pressured to…
Roya Mahboob:
Exactly.
Laura Shin:
Okay.
Roya Mahboob:
They made these stories, and the Congressman Joe _______ 00:43:05, and Susannah, they started to also write a petition that get 53 other Congressmen signature, that, to ask ________ 00:43:14 department to give us the visa. And then, it was just when, when I saw that, I say, something’s going to be happening. It was a week before, and we didn’t get any preparation, and we didn’t know what’s going to happen, and then the next day, President Trump approved that the girls can come here.
Laura Shin:
And then afterward, the reaction in Afghanistan was a little bit different than what you expected. What was that?
Roya Mahboob:
Yes, and it was, like, I mean, when the time that we didn’t get the visa, and we start to do press, and everyone’s talking about it. Many of the press wrote about, showing the girls, and even ________ 00:43:51 wrote in his Facebook _______ 00:43:55, and like, everyone’s talk about that, but my government and my people get so silent, and they didn’t talk about this. And we tried to approach them and ask them to just say one, a few sentence, that they are proud of the girls _______ 00:44:09 if they didn’t get the visa, just to, created a hope for other girls and other families that we can continue to see program in Afghanistan.
And ______ 00:44:18, but when President Trump approved, and first person who recognized us, the Afghanistan team, was Afghan minister in DC. I’m very, very thankful to him, and he wrote that he’s proud of our team, and he came to airport, and he came, and I think also a deputy state department also joined, and yeah, the girls came here for, to the airport. When they arrived, they just surprised with all of this media, and all attention, everyone came, and I think there was quite, very, very proud moment for Afghans, or, I think it was changing.
Like, for centuries, women’s ability was ignored, not only women, even our voice getting ignored by our community, our societies, our government. But now, no, again, and when they get back, President Ashraf Ghani sent a car, and they meet with President Ashraf Ghani and First Lady. They meet with Chief Executive Dr. Abdullah, they meet with former President Karzai, they meet with ministers, they meet with the parliament representative, and everyone’s happy and proud of them, and it was for the first time that the girls from Afghanistan participated in science and technology, and something that, it never happened in centuries in past.
Laura Shin:
Right.
Roya Mahboob:
And it was, I mean, I feel that, oh my God, something’s changed. They are, get, become as a symbol of hope, but they become as a symbol of unity, and these girls bring a light in the heart of the Afghans. Of course, we got a lot of threats by conservative, but I see also the men in our community, especially of Herat, they jump in and they stand with the girls. And it’s never happened in the past. I mean, if a woman get threats by local conservative, local Taliban or by Taliban or conservatives, usually you can see less people wants to be involved to support. But for these girls, we saw that is happening, and…
Laura Shin:
It’s interesting, that is was a 180, like, just over such a brief time period.
Roya Mahboob:
Yeah, and it’s just, I mean, I was, like, surprised in seeing, reading the comments, and reading that how many Afghans may support, and they said that they’re proud of these girls. And the ________ 00:46:56 is that I feel that now our leaders, our people believe the woman’s ability in the science and other technology. So, this is very important for us, and now I hope that ________ 00:47:08 not only for the female, the young girls, but also for youths, for men, for the boys as well, to give them an opportunity that they can change their lives, and they can design created things, that they can change their lives and their communities. So, this is very important.
Laura Shin:
So, actually, I want to go back to Bitcoin. I know you’re not using it right now. Why not, and tell us what you’re thinking about, maybe a token?
Roya Mahboob:
Well, I actually, I personally use the Bitcoins. I invest in the Bitcoins, and we do the trades with Bitcoins.
Laura Shin:
Like, what do you use it for, to, like, ________ 00:47:45?
Roya Mahboob:
I mean, my sister-in-law and I do the threads, and then using the Bitcoin _______ 00:47:51. We also…
Laura Shin:
Are you…?
Roya Mahboob:
…personal…
Laura Shin:
..you, like, you’re trading?
Roya Mahboob:
Yeah…
Laura Shin:
Wow.
Roya Mahboob:
…my sister are doing it.
Laura Shin:
That’s funny.
Roya Mahboob:
She’s doing, and she’s, she was also the first teacher to teach the kids how to _______ 00:48:06 Bitcoins. And we lost about, I have to say that, with the Bitcoins we lost a lot of money as well, because the price goes up and down, but now, but you build it on the Bitcoins, so we keep some of our Bitcoins. And…but now, we decided that, to work on a new concept, because this woman who started her business, so, what’s the next for them? They have to sell their product, and still, the banking has its issue, and it’s very difficult to buy, I mean, selling to the online banking system in Afghanistan, with a lot of ________ 00:48:40 procedure that they have.
So, we are going to starting a new platform, it’s online marketplace that is women. All the ________ 00:48:48 that we have in our program, plus other businesswomans, that they can participate in here, participate in the platform, and they can sell their goods online, and buying the goods online, and they will use the Bitcoins in this platform. And we also providing training. It’s not only for just sell and buy. This platform also provides training for the females that, with markets, what’s new in markets and all of the news of the, about business, marketing, and everything’s there, we’re providing.
And these women have a platform that they can communicate in, do business together, grow partnership, or do meet-up places, so, all is going to happen to this marketplace. And it’s getting that, to come in here, at the blockchain summit ________ 00:49:42, is that to, hearing the others, like, everyone here has a, like, a beautiful story. You know, they have very inspiring story, that they’re working in different technology, and they’re using the blockchain and Bitcoins for different industries. And I got ________ 00:50:00 idea that we wanted to implement a marketing place, or Afghan marketplace that, hopefully when I’m back and I try to make some partnership, and ________ 00:50:12 that, we will be able to make this happen in Afghanistan, because we can simply use, giving loan, special loan to the woman _______ 00:50:26 that the woman can start her businesses and get a loan with…
Laura Shin:
A loan, yeah.
Roya Mahboob:
Yeah, and then if we can also using the blockchain for technology of insurance for this woman, so they can send the products outside of the US, sorry, out of Afghanistan, but using the insurance to, for the protection of jewelries or whatever they builded. So, there are lots of technology that already exists in blockchain, that sometimes we don’t have there, but in such kind of amazing summits, we can learn about others, and how we can collaborate it.
Laura Shin:
Right, but you were saying also, because you were saying that you might use Bitcoin, but then you also said some people suggested to you to use ZERO token? Are you…?
Roya Mahboob:
Yes, we went to the ________ 00:51:11 University two weeks ago, and I talked with the students there, and we discussed what is platform, and some of them suggest, why you don’t use your own coins, building your own coins? So, we are working on that as well, to see that, if we can building our own coins in this platform, or we’re using the Bitcoins. So, this is two things that we are still trying to figure out, and each one is a beta for us. Bitcoin has a value, so, that’s important, buy the Bitcoins, it has a value, it could be for anything that we can use that.
But if we have our own coins, it’s also much easier, and it would be coins to support womans, and that would be in the platform, and we can easily…but we have to work on the concept and figure out that, what is the best for us to use. And I have to mention that, is the marketplace not going to be only for Afghanistan, but it will be a pilot program for Afghanistan, because this Digital Citizen Funds has programs Mexico, Brazil, and other countries that want to try to make it work, right, I mean, bring it to other countries as well, to help women, that they are in the business for, this is mostly for small businesses and medium-sized businesses, that they can support them.
Laura Shin:
Well, this is amazing. I’m so excited that I got to meet you and to learn about your work. So, where can people learn more about you, and also get in touch with you?
Roya Mahboob:
Digital Citizen Funds is our web site, we have to update it, but it’s our web site and they can learn about our projects, and…
Laura Shin:
That’s DigitalCitizenFund.org, or…?
Roya Mahboob:
Yes, dot-org, and then we, I can, they can find me through Twitter ________ 00:52:51, and I’m always trying to respond to email fast. And yeah, I mean, that’s, we have a Twitter, we have a web site that they can contact with us. And I wanted to get the opportunity to announce one of our project to support Digital Citizen Fund is a new initiative that we started, it’s called Digital Citizen Brew, and we created a coffee, and a tea that we bring a spice, we buying the spice, special spice like saffron from Afghanistan and from our students that are working on the farms.
And we will bring it to US, and then we bring coffee from Central America. We made a very delicious blending of formula of the coffee. It’s very good for depression, for the health, for the heart, and for the heart as well. It’s a unique product that support education and technology access for different countries that woman have the ability to learn about new skills, and they can get their financial independence.
Laura Shin:
Okay, great. Well, that’s so exciting.
Roya Mahboob:
Thank you.
Laura Shin:
I will check it out. Thank you, Roya, for coming on the show.
Roya Mahboob:
Thank you very much for having me here.
Laura Shin:
Thanks, everyone, for joining us today. If you’re interested in learning more about Roya, check out the show notes, which are available on my Forbes page, Forbes.com/sites/LauraShin. Unchained comes out every other Tuesday. Please share the podcast with friends and on social media, and remember to review, rate, and subscribe to it in iTunes or your preferred platform. Thanks again for listening.
