Three years ago, Chris Perkins sat across from Terry Duffy in Congress and made the case for perpetuals. Duffy pushed back — hard. Now Duffy’s CME is suing the very regulator that finally allowed them.

The CME argues Bitcoin perpetual futures are really swaps and should carry far more collateral. Chris traces the Dodd-Frank history that created the swap-versus-future divide, and Austin Campbell lays out why picking this fight in a post-Chevron court could backfire on the incumbent. Is a perpetual a swap or a future, and who gets to decide?

With:

• • Austin Campbell, Founder, Zero Knowledge Consulting; Adjunct Professor, NYU Stern
  • Ram Ahluwalia, Co-Host, CEO of Lumida
  • Chris Perkins, Co-Host, CEO of 250 Digital Asset Management

This clip is from a longer conversation on tokenization, the AI trade, and the CME’s lawsuit against the CFTC. Full episode here.

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